Mark Bonner: 00:15

Okay. Welcome, welcome to everyone out there on this beautiful day in commercial real estate, and welcome to episode one of First Draft Live. It's Friday, June 6. We're thrilled to have so many of you tuning in from across The US, Canada, The United Kingdom, Ireland, and beyond. We know it's getting late over there, so thank you for making us a part of your Friday night.

Mark Bonner: 00:35

Over 400 people have registered to join us for today's show, and we're grateful you're here. Just so you know, we're also streaming live on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. I'm your host, Mark Bonner, BizNell's editor in chief, and I'm coming to you live from New York City. On today's program, we're going to get into repricing risk in a hire for longer world, distress, dislocation, and creative capital, and finally, the new macro map for CRE in 2025. Joining us today to help break it all down, Peachtree Group co founder and CEO, Greg Friedman.

Mark Bonner: 01:13

He oversees $10,000,000,000 in real estate investments, and he has deep expertise in credit and equity, particularly in commercial real estate. Greg, welcome to the program. I know you're dialing in from your offices in Austin. We really appreciate you being here.

Greg Friedman: 01:28

Yeah. Mark, thank you for having me, and it's it's an honor to be the first one to do this. So so thank you.

Mark Bonner: 01:35

Thank you, my friend. So look, let's get into the math. The ten year has been hovering all week at around four and a half percent. The bond markets have been volatile. Jerome Powell is saying that he needs more time on inflation.

Mark Bonner: 01:48

I'm looking at Jamie Dimon the last day or two talking about the bond markets. I'm gonna read it to you here. Quote, it hurts the people raising money. That includes small businesses. That includes loans to small businesses.

Mark Bonner: 02:00

It includes high yield debt. It includes leverage lending. It includes real estate loans. That's why you should worry about volatility in the bond market. Greg, how are you adjusting your own return expectations?

Mark Bonner: 02:15

And just for our audience and our benefit, what's the real cost of capital for CRE sponsors at this moment?

Greg Friedman: 02:22

Yeah. It's I mean, that's a great question. I mean, I think there's no question there's a lot of risk in the marketplace today. I think Jamie Dimon's correct. I think there's an underappreciation of risk.

Greg Friedman: 02:32

Obviously, even in the last twenty four hours, we've had Elon Musk and Trump going at it, so that creates another layer of risk. But it's so it's an interesting environment. This is very unprecedented what we're going through right now. And, you know, we've gone through this period of time where, you know, it's been, you know, we went through this decade pre 2022 where, you know, interest rates were next to zero, and now we're in this much higher for longer interest rate environment. And there's a lot of headwinds ahead.

Greg Friedman: 03:00

There's also a lot of, because of these headwinds, there's a lot of opportunities. But if you're making investments like right now, it's a very challenging market because you're dealing potentially with an environment that could, you know, stagflate out. So you may be dealing with stagflation. So as we're pricing, as we're trying to make investments, you know, if it's on the credit side, because we invest through debt as well as equity, I mean, we're obviously trying to achieve on the equity side, you know, returns that are typically around 20% or higher. And this is, in my opinion, an environment where you need to get paid for taking on risk.

Greg Friedman: 03:35

So you need to be very thoughtful about, you know, making any investment because it's a very challenging environment just because the direction of what's happening, you know, between the tax bill, between tariffs, you know, what's going to be the impact ultimately with inflation because those are two inflationary type events. It's very concerning. And the job report, I think, today came back positive, but it still feels like the economy itself is very fragile. So I think it's a period of time where you got to be very strategic and thoughtful if you're investing capital and be very careful.

Mark Bonner: 04:13

Yeah. I mean, you mentioned the drought report. It came in relatively positive. That's not good news if a hawk looking at the interest rate situation with Jerome Powell. It probably means that they stay pat, maybe even until December, at least that's what Goldman Sachs said this morning.

Mark Bonner: 04:29

I mean, when you come when it comes to valuing assets, right, and we know the last half decade, pandemic included, obviously, the political environment that we're in today, uncertainty. Right? I mean, that is the word du jour. How do you even value assets at this moment? I mean, how have you had to evolve that part of your business?

Greg Friedman: 04:49

Sure. So you look at historically when you're valuing assets, you know, we look at the risk free rate, the ten year treasury rate to your point. You know, it's average pre 2022. So when you look from 2010 to 2022, the ten year was, you know, on average about 2.2%. Today, to your point, it's closer to four and a half percent.

Greg Friedman: 05:06

So it's almost double. And so historically, commercial real estate, you would add a risk premium spread depending on the the property type. And on average, I think it's about 270 basis points or 275 basis points above the ten year is what the average cap rate is for all of commercial real estate. Now that includes, you know, office buildings, multifamily, you know, retail, hotels, and so forth. So, you know, that's an average risk premium spread.

Greg Friedman: 05:34

And so if you believe the ten year is going to stay elevated at 4.5% or stay around 4.5% or potentially even go higher, there's some arguments to say that could even go above 5%. But if you feel like that's, you know, that's the range, then you're probably using a substantially higher cap rate than what you're using, you know, obviously, pre 2022. And it's interesting just because we constantly were financing groups that are out there acquiring and developing assets and we're buying out there trying to buy assets. And a lot of people are based on the value the way they're valuing these assets, they're almost valuing it, expecting the ten year to almost revert closer to where it was pre 2022. And we just don't think that's gonna be the case.

Greg Friedman: 06:15

And that's why just to be candid, why we haven't been very active on the equity side over the last couple of years because since first quarter twenty twenty two, we've been super active in doing a lot of direct lending. We bought a bunch of loans from financial institutions as well that are looking to deleverage your exposure to CRE is because the values don't make a lot of sense to us on the equity side because we feel like, you know, cap rates, you know, when you look at the true intrinsic values of these assets and if you apply the right cap rate for what the market is today, it's, you know, most assets are probably worth a lot less than where, you know, these assets are clearing the market if they're selling. I mean, there's been a lot of busted processes, but also transaction volume is still down dramatically from where we were at the peak levels, going back to pre-twenty twenty two or even pre COVID. Part of the reason it's been muted is for the reasons we just talked about.

Mark Bonner: 07:10

Right. I mean, mentioned intrinsic value. Right? I mean, let's talk about the public versus private disconnect for a second. Right?

Mark Bonner: 07:17

REITs repurchased nearly 1,000,000,000 in shares in Q1 this year. That's a signal that they see a disconnect between market price and intrinsic value, to your point. Are you seeing a similar mismatch in the private market? And how is that shaping your buy sell hold strategy?

Greg Friedman: 07:33

Yeah. I mean, it seems like the public market's been probably more punished than the the private markets on trades right now. So from what we've seen, and we don't invest typically in the public markets for, you know, like public REITs or anything like that. But for what we've seen, it feels more like, you know, the private market is overpaying for assets. So definitely, in general, I would say the private market is viewing, you know, has a more optimistic view for the outlook across most commercial real estate assets.

Greg Friedman: 08:06

I would, that would be my argument right now as you relate those two markets together.

Mark Bonner: 08:12

Right. The other thing that we're seeing out of our newsroom is that, and the headlines are a little frightening, right? Development coast to coast is on ice, right? We were talking about tariffs yesterday, you and I, and, you know, tariff driven cost increases, persistent capital delays, it's freezing the development pipeline all over the place across multiple asset classes. I mean, Greg, how is that showing up in your pipeline?

Greg Friedman: 08:37

Yeah. I mean, it's making the because here's the thing, the tariffs is still who knows what's going to happen with the tariffs because, I mean, to be candid, the new administration is trying to implement these tariffs. It hasn't been put in full effect. It's too early to sort of tell. Now, the reality is tariffs are going to drive up the costs and it's going to make it more challenging.

Greg Friedman: 09:00

And if you're starting a development project today, well, it means you're not breaking ground tomorrow because it takes time to get the contractor and get the final architectural plans and get out the pricing coming in. So if you're looking to start a new construction project today, potentially, you're probably at least a good six to twelve months out, if not two to three years out. And now you're trying to underwrite what is the impact of these tariffs. And it makes it very challenging if you want to go develop properties, which is a great thing if you're an owner of assets already today. So if you own a bunch of commercial real estate assets, you're feeling even better about the future.

Greg Friedman: 09:40

Although, we've got the headwinds we've talked about because there's gonna be a lack of new supply. But it's very challenging for us to go out and develop new properties because it's hard to understand what is going to be the impact of these tariffs over the next several years because you're probably if the tariffs truly are in place, that's probably going to cause the cost to grow outside of probably even inflationary pressures, right? So, typically, you would expect to be in a more normalized construction environment. It's easier to sort of gauge your risk. And now we're back almost in this environment, sort of like what we went through during COVID, where pricing was increasing extremely quickly.

Greg Friedman: 10:19

On the positive side, this is not a, you know, construction is a mix between labor expense, you know, material expense. So it's, you know, it is material that, you know, the potentially, you know, the material expense is going be higher, but it's less concerning than what we saw during COVID, where you saw labor expense was just driving a lot of that increase along with all the supply chain disruption that was impacting the material costs. So you were just getting hit from both levels. So it's very hard to do it. But with that said, we are I mean, from our standpoint and from my perspective, I'm still bullish on doing development if you can make it it makes sense.

Greg Friedman: 10:57

Because right now, it's very muted, all new supply across all the property types. So when we wake up three to five years from now, and if you're able to deliver new product that's opening two to three years from now, you're going to be in an environment where there hasn't been a lot of new product delivered, new wins in real estate in general. We own a bunch of hotel properties, premium branded hotel properties under the Marriott Hilton Flags. What we've found and we're continuing to develop several of those properties as we speak right now. We have probably seven or eight of them under construction.

Greg Friedman: 11:28

And and we're continuing to build with the idea that, you know, there's gonna be a premium for this newer product once it opens because the guests tend to you know, per you know, they favor staying at newer hotels. Investors like owning newer assets, and they tend to perform better from a standpoint of being able to drive better net operating income. And you tend to have a better exit when you go to sell them. So development is still viable, but is, to your point, there's a huge headwind if you're doing it through the equity side. The credit side, probably 30% of our book right now is on the new loans that we're originating is slanted towards new construction.

Greg Friedman: 12:06

So we're still active in that space, but you have to be very thoughtful about how you underwrite the risk of the tariffs.

Mark Bonner: 12:14

Right. And the thing that makes this moment so volatile is that you have to make these decisions now, right? We're looking at price of steel, we're looking at price of lumber, we're looking at price of floor tiles. Tariffs are one thing on day one. They're a completely different thing on day two.

Mark Bonner: 12:27

Do you buy on a Monday? Do you wait till Tuesday? Maybe they'll be lower. And we've already reported out over the last couple of weeks that a lot of contractors, a lot of heads of constructions are getting caught in this spin cycle of, gosh, I wish I could have waited today. Can I cancel that order?

Mark Bonner: 12:44

And yeah, so it's a short term decision that you make today for a long term payoff, right? But you still have to make it pencil for the day, right, Greg? I mean, that's chaotic.

Greg Friedman: 12:56

That is total chaotic. It's the environment we're dealing with since I mean, and I hate to pick on the new administration because I'm very, very optimistic, very bullish on some of the things that they're going to hopefully accomplish over the next several years. But I mean, the new administration has taken over at the beginning of this year, it's just continued to be chaos. And I think we're going to continue to deal, you know, we're going to deal with these issues as you're laying out that it's just it's a very chaotic environment. And that's why if you're able to be very strategic and thoughtful in these kind of environments, it's these types of moments where, you know, it's it to your point, it's very hard to go develop, but there's other opportunities that will be created because of it.

Greg Friedman: 13:43

Now, development, this is for the concerns you laid out. More and more people are probably going to be pencils down on developing new. And if have a project that actually makes sense, and I'm speaking very macro, very high level, so I'm not saying go out and just build in every market. But if you have a project that makes sense, you're probably going to do extremely well on the other side of all this chaos. But it's being able to see through this moment of chaos is how we've historically made a lot of money as a firm is being able to move forward and be decisive in these moments.

Greg Friedman: 14:16

But it's not without risk, and it's not you've got to have the stomach for taking on that risk.

Mark Bonner: 14:23

I mean, so obviously, you're into financing a development into the next cycle, right? But have you heard of other people at your level walking away from projects or buying them stalled?

Greg Friedman: 14:35

Yeah. I mean, I haven't seen necessarily projects stall out. I've I've seen a lot of lenders that have started to back down from new development projects that, you know, different lenders that we compete with. I've seen, you know, some developers that have projects in their pipeline that they're you know, they haven't broken ground on, but they're like, you know, maybe maybe we need to take on another partner and they're approaching us or maybe they just want to, you know, sell the project because they're concerned about being able to achieve the returns. I would say it's not really as much tariff driven.

Greg Friedman: 15:05

I think tariffs is probably probably the icing on the cake for a lot of these projects because the other Although a lot of I'm very bullish about development as we talked about them, because I'm sort of talking on the other side of the equation. I mean, let's talk about exit caps. A lot of people are betting on this exit cap that's going to be at 5 and a quarter, five and a half percent. Well, if you're underwriting a development deal, to your point, you're sort of seeing through this challenge that we're dealing with right now, this chaos of the tariffs and so forth. But as we wake up three years from now, are we back to an interest rate environment we saw pre 2022?

Greg Friedman: 15:40

Probably not. And and so if we're not going back to an environment where the ten year is at 2.2% on average, how are you supporting underwriting these exit caps that, you know, that are around 5% or five and a half percent even? Because it's a very likely outcome we're going to be with a ten year that's around 4.5%, which was sort of the low mark. Go back pre GFC, that was the low mark, and we're back in a pre GFC environment. So being at a 4.5% tenure is relatively cheap.

Greg Friedman: 16:08

But then when you start to look at historical cap rates at that period of time, there wasn't a lot of these assets that people were underwriting, selling at 5% or even lower exit caps that were trading at those levels back then. So I think that's probably a bigger headwind to development is making these projects actually make sense and is hired for longer. And it sort of goes to because earlier today, we had our investment committee and we were we went on a tangent about just affordability issues like housing and how we're at a pivotal moment right now because most people are being priced out of homes because they can't afford to buy them. They can't afford to, you know, the cost of with the debt service associated with it and their income levels, you know, relative to, you know, so the purchase price relative to their income levels is like at the highest mark since, you know, pre you have to go back, you know, pre great financial crisis. So we're at a very challenging period of time when you look at it from all those perspectives.

Mark Bonner: 17:09

Right. And look, and meanwhile, there's been a spike in bridge to bridge refinancing and mezz heavy stacks. Right? Is that a creative capital strategy or is that just extend and pretend two point zero?

Greg Friedman: 17:21

Yeah, I think it's sort of extended, but it's sort of a combination. Like, I do think there's some value if you have a project where you just open up and you just need time, you know, because you know you're gonna ramp up and you can ramp up and you can cover this additional cost. Because when you're going from a bridge loan to a bridge loan or you're going from, you know, you're adding a layer of a mezz piece or a pref piece, that's most cases, that's probably increasing your basis because there's so much negative leverage. You know, your debt cost is probably higher. You know, when you look at, you know, blended across those structures, it's probably higher than the cash flows coming off the property.

Greg Friedman: 17:57

So you're going to have to support that through either injecting additional capital into the asset to pay those payments, or you're gonna have to accrue interest. You're gonna have to do something that's gonna end up increasing your basis. And so if you've got an asset that has you you're gonna have meaningful run up of cash flows over the next eighteen months, sure, it can make a lot of sense. But a lot of the deals I'm seeing right now, it's more of a, you know, extend and pretend, and it's a hope and a prayer that, you know, interest rates are going to come down. If that's what you're betting on, I think that's something, you know, going back to the point we talked about before, I think it's very misguided and you're going to end up probably underachieving returns and you're putting your existing capital probably at risk of potential losses, if not a total loss.

Mark Bonner: 18:42

So it sounds like you don't think that's sustainable, that it's essentially a bridge to nowhere.

Greg Friedman: 18:47

I think it's, you know, across the board. I wouldn't say it's necessarily it doesn't work for all assets. I would say the majority of assets out there doing a bridge to bridge, adding pref or mezz to it, I don't think it's necessarily the smartest solution just because it's going to increase your basis. It's not to say it can't work. I do think it can work at some level.

Greg Friedman: 19:06

It's just not It's probably not going to work at the scale that most people would hope. Because, I mean, what's interesting, and I think people sort of forget this because I think a lot of people are trying to do this extent and pretend because they go back to, hey, back during the great financial crisis, because I talk to banks all the time, and this is why they're doing it because we buy a lot of loans from these banks. And they're like, hey, let's just keep on extending the loan out because what we learned from the GFC is eventually everything came back. The difference was is when they were extending loans back during the GFC, borrowing cost was next to zero. Right?

Greg Friedman: 19:38

Today, borrowing cost is expensive. Right? So you're paying you know, back then, you're borrowing at, you know, 4% or whatever the case is, maybe 5%. Today, you're borrowing at rates. You know, if you're doing bridge to bridge, I mean, you're borrowing at eight to 12% type rates.

Greg Friedman: 19:53

And that's that's very punitive to properties where most of these assets are trading, you know, in that, you know, call it six to 9% cap rate range. You know, you're very quickly you have negative leverage or all your cash flows are just getting wiped out to cover debt service to give you a hope and a prayer for another day. And and that's why I think it's it's a very challenging proposition, but I do think it can work in the right situations. But you gotta have an asset where you can really accelerate growth of cash flows a lot quicker. Have to be able to outpace inflation.

Mark Bonner: 20:26

If you're just joining us, we're still talking to Peachtree Group Co Founder and CEO, Greg Friedman. Thank you to all of our viewers coming in from LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook. Let's move on. You know, we have to address the elephant in the room, Greg. Trump versus Elon Musk, the psychodrama that's currently on Truth Social and Twitter or X.

Mark Bonner: 20:48

I mean, we talked about black swans. We've talked about the uncertainty of the administration with tariffs and other other economic policy. Geopolitics comes into play. You know, things like Russia, Ukraine, or or everything that's happening in The Middle East. Like, those things come to play with these decisions.

Mark Bonner: 21:06

Right? You know, when you look at those geopolitical factors and, obviously, when you when you look at this argument that's happening between Trump and the richest man in the world, I mean, how do you even begin to bake those things into your pricing models?

Greg Friedman: 21:21

It makes it extremely challenging because, you know, I mean, this is probably one of the worst case scenarios right now that you have, you know, Musk and Trump, you know, two powerful individuals in their own right, you know, two successful individuals going at it, and they both can impact the markets. This is almost a miniature potential black swan event. Right? Like, who knows how this plays out because both of them, unfortunately, are, you know, probably not taking or they're using the media to sort of and social media, especially to sort of, you know, take the jabs at each other. And I don't think that's healthy for The US economy.

Greg Friedman: 21:58

I don't think it's healthy for the world. And it's something that it could impact, you know, it could impact values because it has an impact to what happens with this tax bill one way or the other. It's going to have an impact to, the direction of The US. And still, The US is the leading economy of the world. So I think this is a really bad situation for all of us.

Greg Friedman: 22:20

I think ultimately, for commercial real estate, although it's not like this isn't a direct fight in regards to commercial real estate, but it does have an impact. And one thing, because you talked about LinkedIn, I post very frequently on LinkedIn just my opinions of the market. And I've been saying this for several months. I think there's an under appreciation for the risk of a true black swan event occurring. And unfortunately, I think the new administration has lost a little bit of focus coming into what they were really all about.

Greg Friedman: 22:48

From my perspective, it was more about less regulation, having better tax policies and things like that. And they've gotten so focused on tariffs. And now this is just another distraction where they're not able to really accomplish our game plan. It's an unfortunate event. And I think going back to my point on the LinkedIn message, I kept I mean, I've said multiple times that I think there's going to be I mean, unfortunately, there's a high risk that there's going to be a black swan event or something that's going to shake up the market because it felt like we're due for one.

Greg Friedman: 23:21

And this potentially could lead into one or it could create, you know, create chaos elsewhere, which isn't needed at this point, Todd.

Mark Bonner: 23:29

So, Greg, I mean, is a ridiculous question, but, I mean, are you literally thinking of Taco when you're thinking about what you're willing to underwrite?

Greg Friedman: 23:38

Not necessarily thinking about TACO, but it's something we've talked about multiple times in our, at least in our investment committee when we're looking at deals and things like that, but it's not front and center. When we make investments, although we're going through a very chaotic period of time right now, we're not as worried about the next three to six months because a lot of these issues are going to get solved. You look at the administration when they were in term last time, they had a lot of chaos around them. They had a lot of volatility. And eventually, we got through it.

Greg Friedman: 24:11

And we're really looking over the next three to five years. And over the next three to five years, I'm still bullish on the outlook of The US economy, the resiliency of The US economy. So although it's concerning, and this is going to be in my opinion, this is going to put more pressure on underlying values of assets. It may actually cause values to drop further. It may cause risk premium spreads technically to grow.

Greg Friedman: 24:36

It may cause the cost of capital is going to probably grow because there's more risk in the economy. Not to mention, I was over in Europe earlier this week. Was in London with a bunch of meetings, meeting with different groups that invest in commercial real estate or looking to allocate capital into commercial real estate. And there were sounding feedback. A lot of them were very hesitant to allocate into The US.

Greg Friedman: 24:57

Most of them already had allocations in The US, but they were looking potentially to dial back their allocations to The US because of a lot of the concerns with the growing debt and just with The US economy and the direction of the new administration. So that was already another challenge as well that puts on because if there's less dollars coming in The US, because a lot of this international money or capital coming in from Europe and other countries tend to pay premium values for commercial real estate assets. That capital is not coming in. That's going to have a negative impact to the underlying values of assets. So, this is just another headwind in my opinion.

Mark Bonner: 25:37

We got a few more minutes here, but let's just try to get to one or two more points, Greg. And again, thank you so much for your time. Look, spreads, they're still wide. Liquidity is still thin. What type of deals are getting done right now?

Greg Friedman: 25:49

Yeah. So I think for the most part, I would argue that deals that have really good from a standpoint of when you say deals are getting done from a standpoint of deals that are getting financed in the credit space, I would tell you deals that have good in place cash flows or they have a very solid business plan on how they're going to go if it's a transitional asset on how they're going go execute and create cash flows at the asset level. Those tend to be the ones that are more fanciful. I think from property type, there's no question. Most properties are probably well positioned from a supply demand perspective on a go forward basis, although multifamily is obviously had a record amount of supply built.

Greg Friedman: 26:26

But resoundingly, I think multifamily is very well positioned as a property type. I think hotels face a lot of near term challenges just with the economy. If it all sudden we did end up in a recession, that tends not to bode well for hotels. But on the flip side, I mean, growth has been anemic since 2020. And so hotels, their recovery time should be super quick if we did end up in a recession.

Greg Friedman: 26:54

And I think long term hotels are very well positioned due to the supply demand imbalances. So I think it's somewhat of an interesting time. And I would tell you one asset class or one property type that we're probably getting more excited about is the office sector, you know, because there's been a bifurcation going on across office where I feel like the media always talks negative about commercial real estate, but it's really geared towards office. And office has obviously dealt with a lot of secular distress, but you're starting to see that true bifurcation. And we're starting to see a lot of opportunities on the debt side and even on the equity side where these assets are trading at much higher cap rates and you have a decent term left on the tenants that are in the building.

Greg Friedman: 27:36

So, it's almost becoming super compelling to invest, at least as a lender, we're starting to be, you know, interested in lending in that space as well.

Mark Bonner: 27:47

So let's go a little macro for a second and we can close on this, Greg. The new normal, the new playbook. Rates probably are not going back to pre pandemic levels. They aren't really gonna go down much more from here, probably. Maybe a few basis points.

Mark Bonner: 28:03

We'll see. This is probably the new normal. I mean, Greg, in your opinion, what does that mean for cap rates, IRR targets, long term strategy? Yeah. Are you thinking about this?

Greg Friedman: 28:15

Sure. This is to your point, this is the new game. I think we've gone from a a we talked about the other day, we went from a forty year period where you bought an asset, you sold it three to five years later, and you sold it at an environment where the interest rate, the debt cost was lower, cap rates were lower. And now we're in this environment where interest rates are going to probably be higher, obviously higher for longer. Cap rates are probably going to expand out slowly, unlike what we saw, obviously, going back over the last forty years.

Greg Friedman: 28:46

So I think we've gone from a decade where commercial real estate assets overperformed, you know, just based on that financial engineering aspect to it. And now we're gonna, you know, unfortunately, probably underperform on the equity side. Now with that said, I think it becomes an environment where you can't financially engineer and drive your returns. You now have to actually be good on the ownership side. You got to be good on the asset management side to drive value.

Greg Friedman: 29:10

So, you still can make great returns in commercial real estate. I think it's a very viable asset class to invest into, and it will continue to be one of the better asset classes to invest into. But you got to invest with sponsors that know how to drive value at the asset level because that's going be a lot more critical than what we saw, especially from 2010 to 2022, where a lot of people made a lot of money in commercial real estate by just being good at buying an asset, not by actually operating that asset.

Mark Bonner: 29:38

K. I'm getting the hook from my producer. That's all the time we have today. Greg, I appreciate you so much. Thank you for being here.

Mark Bonner: 29:46

For all our viewers, we'll be back with another episode of First Draft Live next week, so don't miss out. You can sign up now at Bisnell.comfront/events. And by the way, you can catch all the replays and highlights on our site and socials. Maybe you prefer to listen. We're on Spotify too.

Mark Bonner: 30:03

We hope to see you all here at the same time, same place next Friday. This is First Draft Live. Have a great weekend, y'all.